The Coffee Chat (#54)
My conversation with Eric Nehrlich - Former Chief of Staff for VP AdWords at Google, Executive coach, published author and dad to two!
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Hi there 👋🏽
Babies are born and moms are made.
The little one that made me a mom turned 4 earlier this week.
Looking at her this morning I remembered her as being 4 minutes old, 4 weeks old, 4 months old and now a full 4 years old!
It is true. Being a parent is simultaneously the greatest and hardest thing one does. I would choose it again and again in a hundred worlds, hundred lifetimes and hundred realities. She is the greatest part of me that exists outside of me.
☕ Now, on to today’s coffee chat…
Meet Eric Nehrlich
Eric and I met each other quite serendipitously. He learned about this newsletter after he met Nick DeWilde who I had featured here in August 23.
Eric and I spoke and while I am impressed with his professional success (led business strategy and operations for a $100B business + is now a VERY successful Executive coach and a published author) , what really made me want to feature him in this newsletter was the choice he made - he walked away from his role as Chief of Staff for the Search Ads team at Google in 2019 after he became a parent and went down the path of self-employment as an executive coach, so he could set his own hours and be there for his family!
This also helped his wife, an engineer at Apple, be able to focus on her career. As a family they have a lot of gender roles reversed as her job is more demanding and Eric has more control over his schedule - as Eric told me “so I'm often doing laundry and cooking and picking up groceries during the day between calls. I also handle most mornings so that she can get ready for work and drive the kids to day care.”
Men like Eric is what women need, not once a year International Women's Day celebratory posts on social media!
Below is my conversation with Eric…
Please tell us a little bit about yourself and your family
I'll start the personal side. I'm a husband and a father of two children. My older is a five year old boy and I have a daughter that's almost three. That has pretty much been a significant focus of my life over the past five years. Professionally, I work as an executive coach, which means I help leaders become more effective and have more impact. I've been doing that on a freelance basis for almost five years. That's not coincidental.
I had been working at Google for almost 10 years before that, and I came back from paternity leave and it was very clear when I came back that my older work operating model with the hours would not be situatable for our family especially when I had young kids. I wanted to spend time with them and so I decided to start explore ways in which I could arrange my schedule to spend more time with my family and that's what I've done
Kudos to you for designing the life for yourself that just works! I guess once you kind of let go of expectations and societal norms it is easier for one to design a life for themselves which feels more full and leads to more fulfillment. I'd love to explore this a little bit more. You came back from paternity leave and then what - was there a trigger or a moment when you said okay Eric, I'm gonna now slowly start moving towards the life I want for myself?
For me that key moment was burning out, which happened early in my time at Google actually. So my first two or three years at Google, I was working ridiculous hours 100 plus hours a week 8am to midnight most days and just doing nothing but work. All my friends were like man, you're a workaholic.
But the thing is I had never wanted to be “a workaholic”. I'm not the person that only wants to work because I have always had all this other stuff in my life. But for some reason, the Google job was important enough to me that I really wanted to deliver on it and succeed there. So I kept on saying yes to more opportunities, because there's an ego there - oh, they see that I'm special, they want to give me more to do and I want to do it. I can handle it. And I kept saying yes, and yes, and yes. Then I was told if I wanted to be promoted I had to also do all this more before I would be considered.
At some point my body just gave out - it was on Christmas day of 2011 I woke up with 103 degree fever and my body was just completely drained. I could not get myself to do anything but just lay in bed and there I had this moment where I was what am I doing? Like, why is this promotion worth everything in my life? At this point, I haven't done anything outside of work for two years. I haven't seen my friends. I haven't seen my family, which at that point was my parents and sister. Basically I had given up everything and for what? A promotion. It had been wired into me that there was only one way to grow - go up and up and up. Always hit the next level.
And that was the turning point for me. I came back from the holidays and went to my then manager and said, this is what i am willing to do, these are my boundaries and I am not going back to working those 100 hour weeks. I was told, well if you can't handle the work, you're not getting that promotion.
At which point I was clear that I could handle the work but chose not to live that life. So they took away half my team gave it to somebody else and after getting over the initial shock and kind of disappointment, I realized, I was actually much happier. I was working 40 or 50 hours a week. I had time for friends. I had time for hobbies, I had time for my life again, outside of work. I am so glad I took that trade - not getting the promotion in exchange for a life.
This moment was a really fundamental shift for me. In fact, a few years later, I had another manager that kept on trying to tempt me- hey, if you want to get promoted to director, here's this great opportunity for you. Here is all this additional scope and I'm like, nop, not interested. I'm not on that train anymore.
It takes a little time to re-program the brain and stop measuring yourself on your salary, title. I have to make enough money to pay the bills, but I don't have to make more. That is the difference that really freed me. My focus is more on a full quality of life vs focusing on just one or two metrics.
If we listen our bodies sometime it tells us what we truly need. It is incredible really.
So back to your story, now you are going through this personal journey in an environment which attracts the best of the best and is very performance driven. Lot of us are also just wired to run harder, faster and take on more - like I have aspirations to want to be an executive, to reach the C-suite and I always default to a yes at work. I am guessing people like me were your peer set at Google. How did you ignore judgement from them or even direct advice where someone may have said Eric why are you saying no to a promotion?
I was fortunate that I was two decades into my career when all this happened. I was firmly on that train, run fast and get the next promotion, up until that burnout moment.
During the conversation regarding declining the promotion, I found myself primarily concerned about two stakeholders: my manager and the VP I supported as his chief of staff. The VP expressed his contentment with my decision, stating that as long as I was happy, he was happy to have me working for him. My manager didn't quite grasp my reasoning but was eventually okay with me deciding to remain in my current position.
Knowing these were the two most important voices for me helped drown out the others who may have negatively judged my choices.
Interesting, so you stuck around in that role for quite sometime and then in 2019 moved out of Google?
Yes, however, it's crucial to note that this decision wasn't solely mine to make. When I left Google, my wife and I were expecting our first child. We had to discuss the implications together. It wasn't just about me anymore. We questioned if it was responsible for me to leave a stable job at Google. Would we be able to provide for our family? My wife, who works as an engineer at Apple, supported me and believed in my ability to make it work. We acknowledged that if things didn't go as planned, we would adapt and find a solution.
Ultimately, we decided on a compromise. My wife had a secure job at Apple, so I took the opportunity to pursue freelance work. This allowed us to maintain stability while also giving me the chance to explore new opportunities.
Even though we are in the 2020s, there are still these societal cultural norms where a lot of people would actually expect or assume the flip happens - in say 95% of the families it will be the woman that will go with that freelance option and the man will continue going down the 100 hour let me be the director route. How was navigating that discussion? And what does your family operating model look like?
Important to remember that I'm older than my wife and had started my career earlier. So I had already put 20 years into the tech industry. At this point, I was ready to step away anyway. I kind of achieved what I wanted to achieve in terms of well… everything. I had the titles, the compensation, all the things….I've proven I can play that game and I was kind of done and wanted to just play a new game!
My wife on the other side had roughly 10 years at that point and she also was fortunate to work in a group at Apple that was very family friendly. It was run by a woman that had two kids and people actually got to home at 5-6 pm - they actually scoped their work appropriately so they could go home.
So we as a family felt it made sense for her to continue and for me to get more flexibility.
I like how you have approached your careers as a family unit because I think with most folks who are dual career, the only way it can work is if the two partners work at different gears, like you can't have both together accelerating at the same time. The ones who do this successfully approach it a team sport and say - for the next 5 years you accelerate I slow down and then we change who gets to be in the driver seat…
Or both partners could be in the driver seat accelerating and at that point you just get a LOT of extra help like multiple nannies. We know another family and I think they have three nannies and it is okay. That is a choice they made and it works for them. I don't judge but that was not the choice we made for our family.
Ofcourse, no judgement I mean I have help and both me and my husband are professionally ambitious. I think it also comes down to energy. As long as you are enjoying your work and getting energy from it, you will be a better parent when you are with your child. I for one know I am a better mom to my daughter because I work, I missed work during my maternity leave and I know I will be not so great mom to my child if all I am doing is parenting. But time after a kid is limited and the 80-100 hour weeks are not sustainable if both are doing it week after week…
Oh for sure, I definitely feel the same. I do not want to be a full time parent, every year at the holidays I prove that to myself very clearly. I love my kids. I also love sending them off to daycare. This may make me sound like a horrible parent, but it's just like there are other things I want to do, I don't define myself by being only a parent. There are other things that are important to me too
And not managing your energy can lead to burnout! You are very open about experiencing burnout. A lot of times when I talk to parents people very casually throw this word - I'm burnt out and in the initial years yes physical exhaustion is very real. But how do you coach people or parents to identify when they're actually truly burnt out and need to step away versus it's just parenting, you're exhausted, you're sleep deprived and just push through this and no you do not need to completely pivot?
This article on burnout really struck a chord with me. It pointed out something crucial: burnout isn't just about feeling tired. What got me was how it identified three distinct characteristics: exhaustion, cynicism, and ineffectiveness. It's like this trifecta of burnout triggers. Sure, feeling exhausted is one thing, but when you start questioning what you're doing and feel like you're not making any headway, that's when it gets real. As parents, we know what it's like to power through exhaustion when our kids are sick because we believe in what we're doing. But take away that belief and the sense of progress, and that's when burnout really sinks its teeth in.
That is very helpful! How are you feeling these days? Looks like from the outside you are still working pretty hard!
It's definitely stressful, no doubt about that. My salary now is nowhere near what it used to be at Google. I've come to terms with that. The income is quite erratic; some months are really busy and lucrative, while others feel like nothing's happening at all. I've been doing this for four years now, so I've started to recognize the patterns. For example, August is always dead quiet, so I've learned to just take that month off too. It's not worth sticking around for just a couple of coaching sessions. Having my wife's stable job in big tech helps a lot. We can rely on her salary to keep us afloat. Over time, I've slowly built up my own business to the point where it consistently brings in enough revenue to cover our expenses. Of course, there are still times when I need to dip into our savings to make ends meet, but that's becoming less frequent as my business grows
So is it that the level of autonomy and freedom you have right now is probably leading you not to feel burnt out even though maybe the stress in some sense is as high because this is your independent business…
I feel like the stress is somewhat lower now, mainly because I know we have savings to fall back on. With my wife's steady salary, I'm confident we'll be okay. There's still a bit of stress lingering, but overall, I believe in what I'm doing and I can see the impact I'm making. That makes a huge difference. Back when I was at Google, I had managed to get my workload under control, but I was becoming increasingly cynical about how much change I could really enact and what difference I could truly make, especially in a role focused solely on generating revenue. It felt like I was just making the richest company in the world even richer, and that really bothered me. The lack of meaning in my work was adding to the stress. The job itself was demanding too; I had no control over my schedule, constantly dealing with urgent requests and working late to meet deadlines. The lack of control over my own time was, I think, even more stressful than what I'm experiencing now.
I know we have focused a lot on your departure from Google but just reading your background I know you've kind of made a few pivots and changes to your career. It is a learned skill and so many people confuse what they do with who they are that it is hard to make any pivots, especially if you are in what is considered a prestigious high performing environments. Then there is the regret that I had this opportunity and I walked away…
I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally, I've definitely experienced a few career pivots. I didn't ascend as rapidly as some of my peers who were very focused and on a single track. About 10 years after graduating, I saw some of my college classmates already reaching VP or C-level positions in startups, while I was still navigating as an individual contributor. I felt like I was somehow falling behind, like I'd missed the mark in my life. But looking back, I realized that my approach was different. In my 20s, I considered myself a generalist, exploring various paths and trying different things. And you know what? I was okay with that. Sure, there was a tinge of regret at times, but over time, those experiences shaped me into someone with a unique skill set and perspective that sets me apart from others. It's created my own niche that nobody else can replicate because nobody else has walked the same path I have.
Regarding the question of regret, I think it boils down to understanding what truly matters to you. It's not an easy question to answer, and often we don't take the time to really figure it out. But there's wisdom in the notion that before you envy someone else's life, you have to consider every aspect of it. Sure, someone might have surged ahead in their career, but maybe their family life is falling apart, or their relationships are strained. Would I trade places with them knowing all of that? Probably not. Many times, those who have happy families and thriving relationships have had to make sacrifices in their careers. It's a choice we all have to make. That's why I wrote my book, "You Have a Choice." It's about acknowledging the trade-offs we make and being intentional about what we prioritize in our lives. I want people to be conscious and deliberate about these decisions
Becoming a parent also is a pivotal moment when people tend to re-examine their life, choices and values. It is a great forcing mechanism to learn something about yourself and what you value. So what did you learn about Eric after becoming a dad…
I think it was stuff I knew but it really really really hit me over the head with it. Like, the importance of getting a good night's sleep. Our first child was a breeze when it came to sleeping through the night, but our second? Total disaster. She's almost three and still wakes up screaming regularly, which definitely takes its toll. I mean, dealing with a couple of nights of bad sleep is one thing; you power through it. But when it's a constant struggle, you have to adjust your expectations. I just can't get as much done as I'd like, and I have to slow down to match what I can handle with the lack of sleep.
And then there's the issue of needing my alone time. With two kids, finding moments of peace and quiet is a real challenge. I've had to work with my wife to find ways for me to take a breather here and there. It's tough, especially since I work from home. When the kids are at daycare, I can usually find some quiet time to focus, but when we're not traveling, there are times when I just need to escape into a book for a few hours. It might sound a bit selfish, but I've realized it's not optional—it's necessary for my sanity. Trying to push through without it only ends up in disaster, with both me and the kids feeling the strain.
Any final tips for other parents or folks who are on the cusp of becoming parents?
I guess one thing that really stands out for me is the importance of communication—communication, communication, communication, especially with your partner. It's crucial to be clear about who's handling what, what each person is taking on, and what they need. Historically, I haven't been great at expressing my needs, but it's something I've been actively working on. My therapist gave me some valuable advice last year: I need to give my wife the "weather report." I need to communicate my energy levels, what I'm lacking, and what I need from her. I can't expect her to read my mind. So, I've learned to ask for what I need and keep her updated so she can support me effectively.
This level of communication is especially vital as parents because both of you are going to be stretched thin and tired. Without it, there's a risk of building up resentment. If you're both silently expecting the other to step in and do something, it can lead to frustration. Having open discussions about who's doing what and what each person needs helps prevent misunderstandings and resentment from building up. It's all about being explicit and working together to ensure both partners get what they need to thrive.
Quick-fire questions:
What's the best thing you have watched recently?
We barely ever have time to watch TV, but Barbie was our one movie date last year and we both loved it. It's slightly subversive and critical of patriarchy, and we could all use more of that.
What’s the best thing you have read recently?
One of last year's most impactful books on me was Us: Getting Past You and Me, by Terrence Real, as a reminder that as soon as you get into a you vs. me mindset with your partner, nobody wins. When you can reframe things as us working against a common problem, you get closer, but it takes being vulnerable about what you really need.
What’s the best thing you have heard recently?
What I've listened to: Other than a _lot_ of Moana, Frozen and Encanto? One of my favorite podcasts last year was Jim Dethmer on the Knowledge Project podcast talking about energetic integrity. The four behaviors that he said supported energetic wholeness were:
Radical responsibility (own your actions and consequences)
Feel your feelings (rather than take them out on the other person)
Say what you need to say (communicate your needs as we discussed)
Impeccable agreements (follow through on your commitments or don't make them)
🤓 Open tabs…
(I have modeled this section after those “open tabs” that we all have with a few (okay 30-40) interesting links that we promise we will eventually get to one day. These are the links that I had open for sometime that I finally got to …)
⭐The New Work-Life Balance: Don’t Have Kids
A growing number of young adults can’t see a way to manage both careers and the demands of parenting.
⭐ It’s Time to Rewrite the Script for TV Moms
On TV, moms are mostly white, young, slender, and effortlessly attractive. They’re rarely queer, and they’re virtually never disabled. When there’s a clear breadwinner, nine times out of ten it’s the husband. Single moms are more often stigmatized with mental health illnesses and addiction. Childcare is miraculously taken care of and never discussed. TV moms live in spotless houses without spending any time snaking drains or scrubbing sticky tiles. Moms in workplace shows are rarely shown with their families — and moms in family shows are rarely shown at work. Everything seems easy. Perfect.
⭐The Big Benefit at Work That Dads Are Afraid to Use
Companies have made strides recently in providing equal parental leave to mothers and fathers. But many fathers are hesitant to make use of it. They typically take about half of what their companies offer. Those who forgo the leave don't just give up bonding time with their newborns. Like unused vacation days or health benefits, a forfeited leave means giving up a significant part of their compensation. Fathers who pass up the time often regret it. Timothy Allen, an executive at IAC, skipped his 4 weeks after his twins were born in 2015. Now he tells colleagues not to “miss that moment with your family for something you could have done a week later."
📖 My private thoughts from my very public diary…
(Sometimes on X (Twitter), sometimes on Threads)
I would love to hear from you, feedback is always welcome!
And if you happen to know an inspiring working parent who should be featured in a future edition (or if you yourself are one) - please do get in touch
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Disclaimer: All views expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer