The Coffee Chat (#57)
My conversation with Ashley Coghill - Director of Enterprise Accounts, Parentaly, Co-host @ Ashley & Katrine's Infinite Revenue Playlist and mom to two!
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Hi there 👋🏽
Last week I was faculty at a training program for our early tenured colleagues and towards the end of the program was invited to share some words of wisdom (is this what being old feels like?? :P).
It was a group of people a decade younger than me and what I shared with them was as much for them as for me.
I think growing up a lot of us aspire to lead a perfect life, but what I hope we can all do is live a fearless life. A life where each one of us gives ourselves the permission to fail and embrace the meandering roads, the scenic routes that wind through uncertainty and possibility alike.
For when we seek to live a perfect life, we live a small life, a life where we do not deviate from what is expected of us. And sometimes true happiness, joy and self discovery lies in those deviations.
So don’t live a perfect life. Live a fearless life.
☕ Now, on to today’s coffee chat…
Meet Ashley Coghill
I stumbled upon Ashley thanks to a bunch of her very viral LinkedIn posts where she talks transparently about life as a mother in revenue generating roles in corporate America.
She currently Director of Enterprise Accounts, Parentaly and is on a mission to help organizations increase retention, employee engagement and create less business disruption when someone goes out on a long leave.
She has first hand experienced bias and dealt with environments that were not fully supportive of her as a mom. Instead of being cynical, I love how Ashley is transparent, honest and now part of the solution.
I am so thrilled to have gotten to know Ashley and am excited that she was willing to sit down with me for this chat.
Below is my conversation with Ashley…
Please tell us a little bit about yourself and your family
I've been in sales my entire career, which is interesting because I actually studied literature in college. In my brain, I always consider myself very artistic and creative, but I stumbled into sales and ended up being very good at it, so I stayed.
I am mom to two kids - they are four and six.
And then I guess other things to know: I actually play roller derby, so that's kind of a unique thing. I get to be around some very strong women and non-gendered people on a regular basis, which is, I think, very empowering for me, and I get to have that outlet outside of being a working mom and a seller.
And you are pretty vocal about the challenges of being a working mom
When I was two years into my first SaaS sales job, I decided I wanted to have a child. But it took us a long time to get pregnant, and it was very eye-opening because my company at that time was completely unprepared to deal with my pregnancy. There was no parental leave policy. They didn't know what I was legally entitled to; I was the first one to go out. So that was very eye-opening for me.
I've always been pretty bullish about women in sales, women in tech, and women in underrepresented fields of work anyway. But then when I came up against it, I went into maternity leave, came back, and didn't get paid for it. I got the normal FMLA 12 weeks, or eight weeks at 60% of my pay, and then the rest unpaid, so it wasn't great. I came back, and a man who had been actually on a PIP at the time, like actually on a performance improvement plan, got promoted into leadership over me because they didn't even tell me it was an option. And they didn't think that I would want that because I had just had a baby. And I was pretty upset about that because I came back; I didn't even have a grand plan. They just said, 'Oh, here we go. Hit your goal.' And I did.
I don't even know how I did it, but I still managed to hit my numbers and overperformed against this person but still lost out on the promotion. I did end up leaving that job.
Then when I was pregnant with my second I unfortunately was laid off of the job and went through interviews while pregnant. So I have dealt with a few curveballs.
Most of my career choices have been driven by wanting to have a career but also wanting to make sure that I can be there for my family.
Oh wow I am so sorry that you have had such a rough few years. It is wild to me that in the US, prenatal leave, protection from job losses for folks who are pregnant etc is not federally mandated. It is one thing to read about this at an aggerate level and then it hits entirely differently when you meet someone like you who had a tough experience both times…
I reckon part of it stems from that old-school mindset, you know, the whole traditional family setup with one parent working. But it's more than that. Nowadays, everything's turned into a political battlefield. Even folks who don't have an issue supporting women get dragged into this propaganda whirlwind. There is this weird narrative that parental leave is a vacation or women slacking off or exploiting the system. The left and right clash so much that it's messing things up big time.
This polarization is holding us back, if you ask me. We're falling behind because we can't seem to see eye to eye on basic stuff like family leave. It's frustrating, to say the least.
And instead of complaining about it you are part of an organization that is trying to solve the problem. It must be nice to work for an organization where your purpose and your org’s purpose are so well aligned?
So, Parentaly, I'll give you a little bit of background on how I ended up here. I've been supporting the parental leave cause for almost two years before actually starting to work here. It all started with a post I made about how Hulu had scaled back some of their parental leave policies, and I was really upset about it. The post went viral, which was weird for me, and it led me to connect with people at companies like Maven and Parentaly.
Talking to the Parentaly folks was unique. If I had access to what they offer, a lot of the problems I encountered during my leaves would have been better. There's a misconception that what we do is help people get more parental leave, but that's not it. We actually help companies that offer longer leaves. Some of our clients are in Canada, where the leave process is much longer.
The idea is that taking time off work shouldn't mean missing out on promotions or annual reviews, contributing to the gender wage gap. Parentaly aims to make the leave process a way for someone's career to thrive. We coach parents through the process, helping them come up with a plan to ensure they're on track to continue progressing their careers intentionally.
We also coach managers because many of them have no idea what they're supposed to do while their employees are on leave. Parentaly is fixing those problems. Through our advocacy, we help people make a case for longer leave, even though we don't get paid for that.
There's a podcast for Parentaly that recently interviewed a US legislator trying to pass new laws. While it doesn't directly relate to our coaching services, it definitely contributes to solving the overall problem
I think it is pretty cool that what you do for a living is in line with your mission. A lot of times people feel conflicted or incongruent because their work isn't as energizing, and they're spending hours away from family doing something that's completely misaligned with who they are. So now that you've found this perfect alignment, do you feel it's made you a better parent?
So this is a pretty new thing, having this perfect alignment, only in the past couple of months. I've always tried. I think that when you're good at sales, you're able to be a little bit picky about what you're selling. So I've always tried to at least pick something that sort of lines up with what I care about. Like, I worked at a learning management system for a while, and then a sales enablement tool.
I think one of the things is I always have to be able to make some kind of connection between what I'm doing and what I care about. And if it doesn't exist, like let's say you got laid off, you have different jobs that pay, then I would do something on the side to fulfill that urge to me to do it.
I actually started another podcast with my friend that I actually run about women in sales, women and revenue broadly. And that was kind of the idea; we were like, man, we're not doing enough that fuels our own creativity and what we care about. So let's do this as a side project just to scratch that itch of entrepreneurship a little bit, but also just, we've got to make it better.
And I have a daughter, and I think when I had my daughter I really started to realize that the things that I dealt with every day I did not want for her. And there were a lot of pressures and there was like a gasp, 'Oh no, she's going to be treated this way in a meeting someday probably, or she's going to be talked to in a way that's totally inappropriate.'
And then I was like, oh, what can I do to fix it? Right? So I don't know if it made me a better parent, but it makes me happier when I'm able to do this and that lines up with what I care about. And I think happier people are better parents.
Indeed. Also, I know so many women thanks to becoming moms to girls become a bit more brave and start being vocal about the change they seek. Being a mom is so transformative that it can shift certain beliefs you held. Did you learn a little bit more about yourself after becoming a mom and did you adopt new mindsets, beliefs?
I think it kind of softened some of the hard edges that I had. I wasn't known for being mean to people, but I was known for being very direct. Someone told me they were scared of me, let's just put it that way, in the workplace, because I had no respect for people who didn't do their job. When I don't think someone's doing what they're supposed to be doing in the workplace that bothers me. So, I could be very blunt and abrupt.
But that doesn't happen anymore. I was actually coached after I left and came back, and I have feelings about this, I was coached that they needed the old Ashley because she was like a killer, right? And I was being a little too nice. I don't think that's true. I think I learned patience in some ways. And I think I learned better communication style, because I had to learn how to do conflict management - You can't yell at a toddler. You can't yell at a baby. And I'm not saying I'm yelling at people at work or anything like that. But it did change the way that I communicate and it changed my empathy level.
I think you are dealing with some of these stereotypes also because you are a woman who is a mom and is in a revenue generating role. Some people struggle when women do not fit into an easy mould. They can still see women being in a nurturing caregiving corporate role but when she shows up and becomes a results-oriented, driven human being, their brains blow up, right?
It's so funny because there are studies showing that women are actually better sellers than men, and it's because of the empathy and the ability to listen. So, in some ways, whether I realized it or not, I was trying to fit in with the 'bros' by being blunt, and being a killer, and being like, in the room with the 'bros,' right? And then I became a mom, and I didn't have time for that. I needed to do my job. And I think it actually made me better because I started to listen more.
This all happened at the same time as sales got a little bit more credibility. We started doing things like solution sales and being more consultative, not being so aggressive. So, I think that worked out for me because it worked. I'm still successful in sales. I still outperform men all the time. But I don't look or act like a 'bro' anymore. And I think you're right. I think it's hard for people to think that way. But statistically, women do really well in sales.
In fact, I remember you mentioning how you studied literature, and now you're excelling in sales. I was going to say, it probably comes down to literature teaching you so much empathy. Even though you're dealing with fictional characters, you learn a lot about really seeing somebody else's perspective, someone who has a different time and culture from yours. I think liberal arts as a discipline actually makes people great salespeople.
Though the one reality about sales is that it is a high pressure job. You have a quota and you live and die by that number. How do you ensure that pressure does not bleed into your personal life?
So, a lot of sales is mindset. And I think it's really easy if you are willing to have a great mindset to not feel the pressure to be happy when you're not or when things are hard. It is very hard. And I think even before it was apparent, knowing how to handle those mental loads was very important. I had a very hard time when COVID hit. I was lucky to keep my job the whole time. But I was the only woman who was a parent on the sales team, and I was trying to work with a six-month-old baby at home, and it was a disaster for me. I worked every single hour I was awake, I was working unless I was feeding a baby, and that was not sustainable.
I survived through those moments. But it caught up to me, and I don't think I took it out on my family. But I definitely internalized a lot of it, and I was anxious and in a very bad place for a very good chunk of 2022, probably. And I had to start seeing a therapist, I had to start taking ashwagandha, I started to track what was going into my body to try to lower my cortisol levels, and really nothing because if you don't have a role where it's possible to be successful. And I think a lot of people in sales put a ton of blame on the actual seller to get it right. But if you're in an organization or nobody's hitting goal, like that's when you have to step back and not internalize it on yourself.
You need to give yourself grace, even in a sales role. Ask yourself - If I am putting in the work and the results aren't happening, then I need to look and see if maybe the product doesn't have product-market fit or something like that, right?
That's the way that I cope with it. Because you cannot take all of the blame on yourself as a seller even though you are the one who has a number. Eventually you also have to decide if a certain company and its culture is right for you - sometimes leaving a certain company maybe the best thing you do for yourself and your family
I like that, having certain values and boundaries and then sometimes the right answer is ejecting yourself from certain situation. You do not always need to fight.
I actually want to circle back to something you mentioned when we started the conversation, which was interviewing when you were pregnant. That was still in the pre-pandemic world, because you said your youngest is four, so you were meeting people for interviews in person while you were visibly pregnant. How was that as an experience?
It was very interesting because part of the reason that the previous org laid me off I believe was because I was going to be moving from one state to another. So I was in a unique spot where I was able to start the interview process remotely even though it wasn't a totally remote world yet, and do my first screening and maybe initial interview with a hiring manager on Zoom before I actually met them. So I ended up moving to Chicago, and my first week there, I had seven interviews lined up. Several of them were last interviews, like the final panel before, and I'm like, 'Look, I have a basketball. I am very pregnant.' So I have vivid memories of trying to somehow minimize how pregnant I looked, which was ridiculous and then googling furiously to know like, 'Should I be telling them before I show up? What do I do? I don't know what the protocol here is,' because I was terrified to tell them before, but now it's very like, 'Is it a bad look to show up and just be like, 'I am got a baby in my belly?' It's very hard.
So I didn't tell any of them before showing up, and it was very interesting. I had one interview where the woman took one look at me, and I could tell her face fell. But then she sat me down in a room, and I was sitting when the actual interviewer came in, and he didn't see my stomach, and it was an amazing conversation. And when I stood up to shake his hand to like, go look at the office, his eyes widened. They called me and said, 'We just don't think you're a fit.' But it was very clear that that wasn't really what happened, right?
But I did have one where I ended up taking the job, the CRO was a woman and she interviewed me. I brought it up in that interview, and I said, 'Obviously, I'm gonna have to take some time off.' And she was like, 'Oh, yeah, no problem, like we support families and remote is on the table and all these things,' and when I talked to the recruiter, she was like, 'I didn't even notice…” probably a lie but it was very different than the other experiences, and that's the job I took.
So the anxiety was crazy, like not knowing, the googling, trying to scour Reddit like, 'Who's done this before?' Because nobody was talking about it. This was really not my favorite experience. But I think there are better resources now and people are actually starting to create communities for women who are having to go through this so it's not as isolating, hopefully.
If someone reached out to you today saying they're pregnant and facing layoffs or seeking new opportunities, would your advice differ? Would you suggest bringing it up early or not at all?
I think there are a couple of things that are different now. Firstly, it's very likely you could go through the entire interview process remotely without disclosing your pregnancy. Researching companies is crucial. There's a database from Skimm called Show me your leave that lists companies' parental leave policies, and Parentaly website provides tenure requirements for leave. When people message me about this, I suggest checking those lists first. A company with no tenure requirement for parental leave is a great sign. As for disclosing pregnancy during interviews, due to existing biases, I'd still recommend waiting until late stages or even right after being hired
Anything you would have done differently? Any closing thoughts?
In terms of my own reflection I wish that I had started sharing my experience out loud sooner because I didn't talk about these things when I was in them. I was terrified to say anything about it. I didn't know that there were companies that offered fully paid leave, so I didn't know my experience was that bad to start with. But I know now that if I had said something, someone else probably needed to hear it. So I guess my one regret is not getting vulnerable sooner.
I would encourage other people, like you have the opportunity to do it, because it's really impactful to make someone else feel less alone by sharing the things that you're going through. And so far, aside from one very toxic workplace, it's never been a problem, and that place was gonna suck anyway, so it's not really as scary as it seems once you start getting the support from other people.
Also what you are doing here is so important, to make this issue visible week after week and that is how we can make change happen.
What's the best thing you have watched recently?
The new Bluey special (seriously) called "The Sign"
What’s the best thing you have read recently?
I just picked up Throne of Glass for a re-read, it's one of the best series!
What’s the best thing you have heard recently?
Someone gave me advice last weekend that when someone pushes us, we don't HAVE to fall (we were talking about roller derby, but I feel like it applies to a lot of things in life)
🤓 Open tabs…
(I have modeled this section after those “open tabs” that we all have with a few (okay 30-40) interesting links that we promise we will eventually get to one day. These are the links that I had open for sometime that I finally got to …)
⭐Just one pregnancy can add months to your biological age
New research suggests that a single pregnancy can add between two to 14 months to your biological age
⭐Forget Work-Life Balance
No finite human being has ever won a fight against time. We just get the limited time we get, and the limited control over it that we get. And if you spend your life fighting the truth of this situation, all that happens is that you feel more rushed and overwhelmed and impatient – until one day time decisively wins the fight, as it was always destined to do. (In other words: you die.)
⭐Why is my child so cranky after screen time?
Screens engage our sensory systems, and for some kids, this can be a factor in post screen-time outbursts, tantrums, and upset feelings. This is a particular challenge for kids who have difficulty managing “sensory input,” which is common in those with ADHD, Autism Spectrum Disorder, and (in some cases) anxiety. But is this the only factor in post-screen time moodiness for most kids? No.
📖 My private thoughts from my very public diary…
(Sometimes on X (Twitter), sometimes on Threads)
I would love to hear from you, feedback is always welcome!
And if you happen to know an inspiring working parent who should be featured in a future edition (or if you yourself are one) - please do get in touch
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Disclaimer: All views expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer