The Coffee Chat (#9)
My conversation with Jennifer Nachshen - a behavior change designer, entrepreneur, clinical psychologist, professor, and mom to almost 3-year-old Ellis
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Hi there 👋🏽
I recently received an email from a reader who had read Coffee Chat #7 where I explore topics around how men show up at home when they become fathers and the mental and physical burden that women face due to the disproportionate amount of unpaid labor that they undertake at homes.
He asked me to share his story with the world with the hope that somewhere someone else also recognizes the pressure that the women in their life experience. Recognition of a problem is the first step towards change!
☕ Now, on to today’s coffee chat…
Meet Jennifer Nachshen.
I have known Jenn for a few years now and have always admired the amazing things that she has done in her life. She is someone who views her career as a lattice (vs a ladder) and has never shied away from following her curiosity. She is a stereotype-defying business leader!
I also loved how Jenn openly talks about having her daughter through surrogacy. There are multiple ways one can experience parenthood. It is critical to normalize these conversations.
I had an absolutely wonderful time chatting with Jenn and getting a peek into how she thinks about work and motherhood. I am so excited to share this chat with the rest of the world.
Below is my conversation with Jenn..
Please tell us a little bit about yourself and your family
I am a behavior change designer merging Behavioural Science Human-Centred Design and Business Strategy. Last year in November I launched my own firm called Jennifer Nachshen Behavioral Design to help organizations de-risk innovation by combining evidence-based approaches from behavioral science with empathy-derived insights from human-centered design. Prior to starting my firm, I was a manager at Doblin (Deloitte's innovation and human-centered design group) where I spent a little over 3.5 years. I am also currently a sessional instructor teaching Business Design at Rotman Commerce.
My husband is a geneticist with the Ontario Institute of Cancer Research. Together we have an almost 3-year old daughter named Ellis who loves running and yelling and playing dress-up.
We have had a few conversations since our Rotman days about what you do. I find what you do for a living fascinating. But what I find even more fascinating and inspiring is how you got there. You are someone who has had a pretty unconventional path into the world of business and consulting. I would love for you to share your story.
A number of years ago I got a PhD in clinical psychology and was working as a clinical psychologist both in practice and research with my specialization being a focus on children with special needs and their families.
And I just sort of always found it a little bit unsatisfying in the sense that psychology is very much an individual focus – you work with one child and one family and you're helping them to develop the coping mechanisms and the resources that they need to deal with a world that is ill-equipped to handle the needs of children with autism and other kinds of neurodevelopmental disorders.
It just always felt to me like that is a big weight to put on somebody's shoulders. Instead it really should be about, how do we change the schools, how do we redesign the curriculum, how do we redesign how the world works so that in fact it can be much easier for everyone, not just people with developmental disabilities. I guess what I really wanted to do was have a wider impact and bring about more structural change.
At that time I had not articulated it this way and so to find fulfillment I did a few different things on the side - I used to work as a social media marketing consultants, I was a writer and editor of lifestyle content and I also used to blog and write about fashion, beauty, food, lifestyle and all kinds of travel. I used to conduct learning assessments with children during the day and then change my shoes and sit front row at Montreal Fashion Week in the evening.
At this point we were in Montreal and my husband got an offer to come to Toronto to work at the University of Toronto. I knew that I didn't want to go back into psychology and I also knew I didn't want to go into writing. What I had started enjoying was business. I had enjoyed starting my own business and kind of really building that up and so I said I really want to do my MBA. I did not know what I wanted to do with the MBA but I felt getting some business education would be useful.
So we moved to Toronto and I started my MBA at UofT. Having a health based, PhD, I was able to get an award called the Science to Business Award from the Canadian Institutes of Health Research which was awarded to folks with health-based PhDs going into MBA programs to focus on the commercialization of science and administration of scientific organizations. And that is where I thought I would be going until I discovered business design and behavioral economics and the intersection between the two of them. It made me realize okay so this is exactly what I've been talking about. This is using the principles of psychology and human behavior all the stuff that I do really well and I spent a long time studying it, but instead of focusing on the individual I'm now focusing at the organizational and systemic level. It was just so incredible to have that kind of revelation.
During my MBA I interned at BEworks as a research associate and then after my graduation I joined Doblin. I was excited to be a part of Deloitte because I really wanted an opportunity to work in a really really large organization with lots of moving parts and explore that world.
I spent about 3.5 years at Doblin and then in November 2020 I left Deloitte and started playing with the idea of launching my own firm. I’m still building the concept, although it may not happen. In the course of doing my own customer research I spent time talking to everyone in my LinkedIn network who worked in a customer-focused industry. I wanted to understand their burning questions about their customers and get a sense of what they needed in order to integrate behavioural design into their processes. These discussions really enabled me to articulate the work I wanted to do and I realized that I needed to work with teams to be happy. I’m now contemplating next steps with a small number of organizations that are really keen to integrate my specific skillset into their work. It’s a very exciting time!
And personally, what has been the story there?
Very few people know, but while I was doing my MBA I was also doing a lot of fertility treatments. Sometimes it felt like I was kind of throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what would stick. Both things were very very challenging. But working at both simultaneously meant that one was distracting me from overthinking the other. I'm a person who likes to work and I just feel better when I'm busy. So keeping busy was so important to me and really helped me go through a tough couple of years.
My daughter was born by a surrogate. The embryo was implanted on the the weekend before I started at Deloitte. So, it all happened at the same time and I remember just thinking, alright, I've done everything I can.
Oh wow, I had no idea. So when you are pregnant very soon everybody knows and for most parts, I feel people are generally empathetic with what is happening to you physically and emotionally. I am sure you were going through a whole bunch of emotions as an expectant mom. Only in your case it was probably not all that visible. How was it going through all this while you were also transitioning into a new career?
So I was trying to have a child and get a consulting job. When people would find out a lot of them would say what are you going to do if you get both? How will you manage if you actually succeeded at having a child and getting this big consulting job?
And it was such a funny question because I remember being like, well I guess I'll celebrate. I guess that would be kind of awesome.
But it was so strange that people were approaching me like it was some kind of problem or trade off that I was dealing with - like what are you going to do with all these great things if they happen at once?
And I wondered, 1) why is nobody asking my husband these questions. And 2), like why would I be anything except thrilled? I'll be overjoyed. I'll be the luckiest person ever.
And both did happen and I do feel that I am blessed to be such a lucky person.
Wow. What a story! Great to see that things worked out for you professionally and personally and they still continue to work out. What are some of things you have done to make that happen?
External childcare support has been critical. So pretty early on, in the initial months itself, we started getting someone in for the mornings so that I could do a couple of things. And then at five months, we had her stay on so she became my daughter's nanny when I returned to work. And finally by about 10 month my daughter started daycare.
Now in addition to the daycare we also have a babysitter. So I have two evenings, Tuesdays and Thursdays, that are my working late evenings and the baby sitter is with us till about 7:30 pm. We also have her on Sundays when my husband and I do a date night.
A lot of people have very strongly held views on what is the right model for childcare in the initial few years. Like I heard some push-back when I wanted to send my daughter to daycare at 10 months. Looks like your daughter started daycare at that age too. How did you feel about sending your daughter to daycare at 10 months?
I think the decision to send your kid to daycare really depends on what kind of a kid you have and what kind of a person are you.
I don't know how to say this without making it sound awful but I just didn't feel like I have the same kind of energy for motherhood like some other women. Motherhood and taking care of children is a skill and like most skills it is not something that everybody is great at, in the same ways.
I have my specific strengths in terms of parenting. But for me, I really, really needed to work. I just found that staying at home and parenting all day was incredibly draining.
With this model I could work which would give me energy and then I could be a more present parent for my child. So for me that felt like the best thing - she was always being stimulated by people with energy.
That was a big reason why we transitioned her to daycare too and honestly her transition was so easy, because she had so much fun at the daycare. There were other kids and always so many different things to do. She loved it, she had a great time, she never complained about going, she liked the food there and she liked the people there.
For our family it was just such a clear win-win situation. And, you know I want my daughter to learn that lots of people can love her and care for her. And it's not just me. And so we've continued on that way.
As she gets older, I’m starting to find my personal parenting groove. I’m super into reading with her and doing puzzles and baking. I think it is ridiculous to assume that all women are going to enjoy all the stages of parenting. I’m just more of a preschooler person than a baby person. And I have friends who are the opposite!
I hear you and I think I am similar in a lot of ways because work energies me too. I mean a big reason why I started this newsletter during maternity leave was to be a part of the conversation and stay connected with the adult world. I obliviously love my daughter but I cannot do childcare 24*7. I feel like a lot of women feel this way but are afraid to acknowledge it.
I think the fact that we don't acknowledge this is a problem in a lot of ways.
First of all, we need to value childcare. And if the notion is that everybody can be good at it and enjoy it all the time, then there's no reason to value it. And by admitting it's not for everyone we elevate the skill. This is why there are professionals who should be well paid for the work that they do.
And then there is societal expectations and norms. You and I are sort of constantly apologizing for wanting to work, but no man would ever have to do that.
Oh, for sure, they would probably celebrate him and say great he is trying to look out for the family. When a woman becomes pregnant she is asked how she will manage work and life but an expectant father is never asked those questions. Society wants to make women choose either or.
Yeah, it's weird.
I remember sometime back I was in a cab on my way home from work and told the Uber driver that I was going to swing by and pick my daughter from daycare. And he asked, how old is she? And I told him she was 11 months. And he was all shocked that an 11 month old was at daycare. Then he asked me how long has she been there? And I told him since eight this morning. He exclaimed oh that is such a long day out of the house for a baby. And I just sort of laughed, and I said, believe me, it would have been a longer day for her had she been sitting around with me at home.
It is ridiculous how most people feel comfortable judging us as mothers without realizing who we are as individuals.
I personally want my daughter to understand that we all wake up in the morning, we all go out in the world and do our productive work and then we come back together at the end of the day as a family.
Which is why I absolutely love daycare. It is the right thing for my daughter and for us. And if anything, this pandemic has really shown us that, you know, the notion of parents staying home to care for their children is really not a scalable model. When we have one parent of each family staying home to take care of one child, that's a huge investment of resources. However, if we have one child care worker taking care of five children, that is six adults who are back in the workforce.
It is a no-brainer if you look at it from a purely economic lens. I think that most families in the long run would be better off with both partners working vs one of them stepping out of the workforce for a significant number of years.
For me, the notion of stay at home parenting is a luxury. If that’s what works for a mother and a family, then that is great. People should do what is right for them. But it isn’t the norm anymore. Toronto is an expensive city to raise a family.
Obviously there are some families where they might have some specific needs and so they have to diverge from this model but yes I agree that in today's day and age both partners should work and caregivers should be paid well and appropriately for the work that they do.
You are doing really interesting things in your life while raising a mini human. It is amazing. Prior to being an entrepreneur you were in management consulting, which by its nature can get intense. What were some of the things you did to make motherhood work while being a full-time consultant and part-time professor?
I should start by acknowledging that doing all this is tough. I don't want to make it sound easier than it is.
To begin with I probably didn't do as many extra things as many consultants do at my stage. I did not say yes to a lot of the side of desk things that weren't completely things that I'm either passionate about or necessary.
I was also pretty strict with the hours. I think generally if I cannot get my work done between, you know, 8 am and 5 pm, then something is not right. Overall of course there were days where I had to work longer. Of course there were a couple of weekends where I had to put some time in. But I was clear I did not want this to become a default. For most parts it was okay. I really just think that both working mothers and fathers should put their foot down. And, in fact, I also would argue that not only mothers and fathers but just men and women like everybody in an organization should be protective of their personal time.
Like I remember a male leader in the firm sent an email saying that he was sorry but he will not be able to attend a meeting in the evening because he had promised to help his daughter with some school work.
And I wrote him an email back and I just said thank you so much for sending that email. Seeing male leaders visibly putting their families first helps set an important precedent. It shows that you can say no to something.
I do think change in organizations comes through role modeling. I have never understood why in certain places there is this notion that long hours = high-quality work. I find it crazy when I hear stories of people working everyday till 1 am. This should not be the default. It is just not sustainable.
Exactly. This does not make for smart work. I know how the human brain works.
There is enough research in this area. Yes, there are a few people, a tiny minority, out there who have a larger capacity for alert waking hours but for most of us, we don't do a lot of good thinking late in the evening / night. When I've been a leader on a project I've told my teams sure if you would like to stay at work till 10 pm, go ahead but I wonder if you're being actually particularly efficient.
I would rather have a team be efficient till like 6 pm and then go home. Disconnect. The brain needs that. So that they can come in fresh at 8:30 am and attack the problem. Most people can do as much work between 8:30 - 10 am as they can do between 6 to midnight. It's better work. The Law of Diminishing Returns is true. Letting the brain have time to rest makes you smarter.
Also, I believe you have to act in a way that shows people how you want to be treated. I think a bit of that comes with age too. So at Deloitte I was a little older than most people at my level just because I did switch careers. And there's something you know about being in your 40s. You are not constantly trying to please people. You are comfortable pushing back. You're like this is how I want to live my life and if it doesn't work for you then so be it. I want to do things that give me energy and yes like 20% of the time sure I have to do some stuff I don't like but you know, most the time I'm pretty happy.
I love this. Was this always how you were or did becoming a parent actually cause that switch?
I think a lot of the changes in my mindset actually happened just going through the infertility process. Realizing that there was only so much that I can do through sheer force of will. It also helped me become a lot less concerned with what other people think.
I mean, that sounds weird because obviously I want to do well and I want to deliver for my clients, for my teams and leaders. I like doing well and I like helping people. But it's less that I want them to see my performance of doing well.
So I'm not very interested in achievement theater.
Also, I don't compare myself to people my age or people who are in terms of titles ahead of me. It is pointless to compare. I did things differently. I did them my way.
One of the hardest things to do is not compare yourself to others but just compare yourself to your previous version. It is amazing that you have been able to do this. Given that you are someone who is good at setting boundaries I also wonder if you have any tips to do this in one’s personal life. You are part of a dual-career household. Any tips on how to make parenting work when both partners are in demanding professions?
One of the things that really helped us was the fact that my child was born by a surrogate. So, you know, we were bottle feeding, and neither of us was the de facto caregiver. So, right from day one we split care giving responsibilities. Early on we both took quite a bit of time away from work.
Also, my husband is an academic so while his time can be extremely in demand it can also be flexible. There are times that he is doing more parenting than I am and then there are times I am.
As far as the other jobs that are needed to run the house we take them on based on who is annoyed less by that task say grocery shopping versus cleaning the backyard kind of thing.
But having said that there still has to be negotiation between the couple to figure it out. And of course that negotiation is often very difficult because when you've got a child in the mix, each person in the marriage is doing more work than they've ever done in their whole life so everybody's always pretty sure that the other person is slacking.
One thing that we have made a rule is to prioritize each other's physical health. So if one person wants to go for a run or to the gym or to play tennis or do something that's going to be active and healthy then the other person steps in.
Also, now that my daughter is getting older, it's definitely getting a lot easier.
I am thrilled to know that it gets easier! To close this off what advice would you give women who are on the cusp of becoming moms and most importantly, what advice should they ignore?
I think women have to just be unapologetic about who they are and what their approach to parenting is. I think if you love parenting, you love all that stuff around it then great - enjoy it. Like go elbows deep in it and just do the crafts and the songs and everything else. But like if you're not that person you can't just suddenly become that. Just be yourself and be present for your child when you are with them.
And whenever you are unsure of what, you know, you should do or how you should feel about something just ask yourself - Would any average guy feel this way? I know so many women feel guilty about sending their child to daycare. Do any of their husband's feel that way?
Also, don't hold yourself up to ridiculous standards that don't make sense with who you are. The only thing your child wants to see is your truest, most authentic self and to be loved by that person.
Quick-fire Questions:
What’s the best thing you have watched recently?
I’m currently loving Call my Agent on Netflix. I try to practice my french by turning off the closed captioning, but I really have to focus. Lupin was also a treat. And Flack on Prime was delicious.
What’s the best thing you have read recently?
Can I promote my upcoming book chapter in The Behaviourally-Optimized Organization coming out on March 1? Chapter 10 is amazing!
I also really loved What Works: Gender Equality by Design by Iris Bohnet. I recommend that to anyone who cares about gender equality. Otherwise, I love fiction. A few recent favorites include Writers and Lovers by Lily King and The Glass Hotel by Emily St. John Mandel.
What’s the best thing you have listened to recently?
I tend to listen to audiobooks and podcasts while I walk. To make me walk more, I go for mystery and suspense. When Ellis was tiny I used to walk her around the city listening to creepy murder podcasts, like The Teacher’s Pet. For music it’s all about musical theatre. Yes, murder and showtunes. That pretty much sums me up.
I would love to hear from you, feedback is always welcome!
And if you happen to know an inspiring working parent who should be featured in a future edition (or if you yourself are one) - please do get in touch.
Disclaimer: All views expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer